HOW TO CHANGE YOUR MIND WITH XIU XIU

The conversation surrounds mind-altering substances and their many benefits and pitfalls. The three creatives chat lovingly, pulling from their unique experiences, sharing thoughts, theories and criticisms on recreational drug use. The theme is anchored by Seo, who currently works in cannabis regulations for local government. “A lot of my job is trying to shift people's perception of weed,” Seo says during the call. “Hopefully that leads to a perspective change in all drugs and drug use in general.”

Jamie Stewart: Hi, Ron. Good to see you sweetie. How's it going? 

Ron Athey: How are you guys doing today? 

Angela Seo: Hi Ron! We’re good.

JS: Good. It's been a little bit. It's nice to see your sweet face! I've been reading your recent book, the compendium of your writings in Queer Communion. A number of the things you mention – how different drugs have been a part of your life and in a lot of different ways. And in some ways it seemed like they were great. And in some ways it seemed like it was a little struggle. In the couple of times that you and I have gotten stoned together, it seemed like that was a good part of your life. How are things with weed and you?

RA: Me and weed are good friends. Kind of daily friends. I don't wake and bake the way I used to because I do get lazy. I do one thing and congratulate myself. Now I have a celebration party for that one thing and then kind of start massaging the next thing. But you can only smoke so much weed. I think sometimes I have trouble with taking edibles as a sleeping pill. I just stopped after doing it through all of the pandemic. So, two years of taking handfuls of those gummies at night, always going to bed like fainting and waking up a full eight or nine hours later. I'm a nervous person so I never sleep more than six hours on a normal cycle. So I just kind of wedged myself off of that habit. I'm just…on the bong. 

JS: Yeah!

RA: I know weed from the old “Mexican bale hay weed” and then Thai sticks with a lot of seeds were the new thing. And then, you know, some bro came from Humboldt County and I [remember] like crawling on the carpet trying super skunk for the first time.

JS: When did that start? I didn't really get into drugs at all until probably 2015. It was a late thing in my life.

RA: It was an eighties thing. 

JS: Good weed started in the eighties?

RA: Yeah, it started in Northern California here. But of course, if you went to Amsterdam you could sit in a coffee shop and listen to The Eagles and choose from a little menu.

JS: Angela, you smoked dope high school. What was it like then?

AS: If you were smoking weed in high school, you're not really thinking if it’s good or not, you're just like, “Ok, here's weed.” I think the first time I smoked, it was with one of my Korean friends. Her dad had a collection of these antique Korean pipes in a glass case and we took this long, Korean, wooden bamboo pipe. 

JS: Sounds exquisite.

AS: It was probably pretty shitty weed.

JS: You gotta balance out the shitty weed with a beautiful receptacle. 

AS: We just cleaned it off and put it back. It was the nineties and in California so I think we had pretty good access to marijuana. It never really seemed to be that much of an issue for us. I smoked more in college. I went to Berkeley. I stopped for a long time because, kind of what you said Ron, I felt like I just couldn't do much with it. I also have anxiety a little bit – or I tend to try to be over productive and I felt that weed was an impediment to that. 

Now, as I'm trying to stay away from always needing to produce or make or do something, weed kind of helps mellow me out. It's okay to smoke some and just think for a bit or listen to music or whatever. So it's been good. It's back in my life. We've reacquainted with my friend The Weed.

RA: It certainly helps now that weed is legal. You can just say, “Oh, I don't want pure sativa because it makes me nervous or paranoid and I don't want the super skunk…” There’s opposite extremes and you can find the right hybrid for that, which I have to do.

JS: Yeah. I can't go that direction at all.

AS: You do a lot of edibles, right?

JS: Yeah, just because my golden throat is so delicate, it's hard for me. I can't smoke it that much so I just usually do edibles, but definitely indica for me. I'm bat-shit and worried about everything all day anyway so I don't need anymore things to be freaked out about; imaginary concerns that my house is being broken into when I’m blitzed out of my mind. 

Speaking of being productive, I cannot do anything when I'm stoned. It's definitely something that I do when my day is done. I know for a lot of people, it's an incredible creative stimulant for them rather than an escape from that. Do you find that you can get work done when you're high?

RA: I can if the workload is rolling already and I know I have eight more hours to go and I've already worked 10 hours. I could smoke weed and have another double espresso. But it doesn't journey me creatively necessarily, whereas something like ketamine does. I like the texture that THC puts over everything.

AS: What kind of texture?

RA: A more pleasant texture instead of sometimes things feeling too scraped raw. Or the same thing with that endless work day; this feels like I'm doing time. So a puff off the bong or a little bit of kief out the pipe and I feel good. I think it's about dialing in how much you need to have that texture. Sometimes it's not about discipline, it’s about working through the grim.

JS: That's a good way to put that.

AS: I think that's one of the reasons why I started smoking weed: I was drinking a lot. When I was having really stressful work, drinking was a way for me to kind of blunt that, but then I didn't really like being hungover or what alcohol does to the body. Weed is a lot better. I really wanna try more ‘shrooms, more regularly. My stomach can't handle it, unfortunately.

RA: Have you tried it in chocolate? Have you tried it in other forms? 

AS: Yeah, I'll take the ‘shrooms and make it in tea with licorice, cinnamon and whatever herbs I have laying around. That helps me. Even then, it does feel a lot more taxing because it’s still some sort of chemicals that are being put into my body. I'm curious about all these different explorations; people growing different types and how to make them better or even the edibles that are coming out. 

JS: That's a good combo for me. I always get sad if I'm on a really long mushroom trip and it's starting to end. I'm like, “I don't wanna. Don't make me come back – I love where I am!” But, if halfway through it I eat some dope, then it gives it a couple more hours.

RA: They're friends. 

JS: They're definitely friends.

RA: One thing I had for a long time that I was waiting to use; I think it's called “black voodoo salvia.”

JS: Did you do it?

RA: It's like being clobbered by the universe. We did it in Palm Springs. I won’t name names. I couldn't move. These electronic gray waves were shooting into me until I was a concave shadow of myself. And then I was dead, like I didn't exist. I had to muscle my way back into the room. So, I like that challenge. I used to like high dose psychedelics, but you definitely wouldn't do it for pleasure. You wanna challenge your mortality, how you feel about life and death? And if you're strong enough to go insane or not, you know? It's not an easy one.

AS: A self-hatred does drive a lot of my initial drug use.

JS: Ha. So maybe lean into it.

AS: That's not now, but initially, you know, when you're a teenager and you're doing drugs, it's like, “Oh, how do I destroy myself?” These days I'm really curious as to how different plants can mix together to really activate. Wishing there was a lot more – I hate to say “scientific research” – although separately cannabis needs a lot more research done to figure out what real medicinal qualities it has. It's so different on an individual level. That's also part of my job. I don't know if I told you, Ron, but I am currently working in cannabis regulations for local government. 

RA: From politico to weed exec.

AS: Yeah, I know. I know. So dull, right? But a lot of my job is doing that public perception and trying to shift people's perception of weed and hopefully that leads to a perspective change in all drugs and drug use in general. Personally, I think about the balance of certain qualities of plants, like shrooms or weed or even tobacco, it deserves a little mystery. Like, we should develop the pills but also…

JS: Let's see what happens!

AS: Yeah! See how crazy it makes you sometimes. Try it!

RA: Weed seems to respond so differently to different people that it's hard to say that scientific research could tell you what happens in what body, you know? 

JS: I’ve had totally different experiences with the same strain and this is gonna make me sound like such a hippie, but also at different times of the year. It could be the same amount.

RA: It's time for your fall weed.

JS: I'll have a very winter reaction or I have a very wintery mental journey on it. I don't know, the weed molecules are being pulled by the moon in a different way because I'm closer or further away.

RA: I think the same way, but in terms of daylight hours, because I'm a bit of a sun worshiper, so this isn't my favorite time of year. As it gets darker earlier, I feel depressed.

JS: I have the exact opposite reaction. I definitely have winter hours. 

RA: I was a vampire until like 1983.

JS: You’ve had enough darkness.

RA: “Tulumn with a g-string on” kind of life. Angela, how do you feel about dabs?

AS: It's a little excessive, I'm not gonna lie, but maybe because I haven't done it. Part of my job is visiting [cannabis] manufacturing plants. I think part of the reason I don't like dabbing – and this could just be a hippie-ish thing on my part – is because of the manufacturing and the chemical process it goes through to really extract all the THC from it. I mean, they take great pride in it. They're showing me their wax and shatter and diamonds, how clear they are. “It's so beautiful and the crystalline and the huge chunks of diamonds,” And I'm like, “Awesome!” But, also I'm thinking, who needs to smoke that? It’s 90% THC. What do you do with it? But, a lot of times people acclimate to it so they need something stronger, especially for medicinal purposes. I love the idea of [cannabis] being grown and maintaining some natural property. That's the reason why I smoke.